Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Topics about the Regiment during the Second World War.

Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby wibs12 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:52 pm

Hi,

New to the forum - hello !!!!

I'm helping a friend research her grandfather who was in the Border regiment in WW2 and hoping for some help from members.

I've helped her with the form required to send off to the MOD for her grandfathers service record.

In the meantime, we know the following about him:

Name: James Gill
Rank: Private
Regiment: Border Regiment
Service number: 3601124
Battalion: Believed to the the 4th but unsure
POW number: 17068 (believed to have been POW for 4yrs or so)
POW: at Stalag 344 (VIIIb) Lamsdorf
Born: to parents Albert and Jane, in 1918, from the Maryport / Bulgill / Wigton area.

Forces War Records notes him being listed as being shown on Casualty List 262 as missing, then on Casualty List 303 (presumably as POW?). Also list the 'incident date' as 09.09.1940.

Does anyone know if 3601124 indicates if he was in the 4th Battalion.
Can anyone help to pinpoint when he may have been captured.
What are the Casualty Lists mentioned above and may they help in learning more.

Any other information regarding him would be hugely appreciated. She's mentioned she's got photos of some letters her grandfather sent home fro the POW camp so I'll post them up when I get them from her.

Many thanks,

Paul
wibs12
Private
Private
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:58 pm

Re: Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby mrdeacon » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:04 pm

Welcome to the forum Paul, you have done the right thing by getting your friend to send off for the records this will be a great help in her search.
Sorry I can't help with any other details but good luck.

Cheers Mike.
mrdeacon
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:32 pm
Location: egremont

Re: Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby wibs12 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:13 pm

Cheers Mike, appreciate the 'hello'!

Know you're right about the records but was hoping to get a head start, particularly re identifying if he was definitely in the 4th Batt. and the circumstances of his capture. I've read a lot of the other posts on this forum and learnt a lot about the Regimental action in WW2. I'm only guessing at this stage but it seems that he was either captured in the action fighting for the various bridges over the Somme, or at the Dunkirk rearguard action..
If anyone has any other ideas I'd love to hear then, in the meantime I'll keep waiting on the records.

Many thanks,

Paul
wibs12
Private
Private
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:58 pm

Re: Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby plbramham » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:42 pm

Hello, Welcome to the Forum.
If was 4th Bn. captured in 1940, the odds are that he was caught with that Battalion after the Dunkirk rearguard The 4th were largely territorials from the Kendal/ Windermere area, almost all whom were captured ( or killed) at a town called Incheville. Kendal became known as "The Town of Missing Men". ( Ah and Stalag V111b was the PoW camp they were sent to.)
Afraid I'm in a rush so sorry for brief reply, will try to do more later. For now, do a search for "Incheville", or look in the WW2 section of the index board - will try to help more later!
REgatrds Paul
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Re: Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby wibs12 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:08 pm

Cheers Paul and thanks for the offer of coming back again.........

I've already had a look at the stuff on Incheville on the forum...... it's great that these forums are out there and folk ccan ontribute to help others learn..... I really didn't know the back story to Dunkirk and learning what the guys of the 4th Bn did is humbling to say the least.

I still don't know if he was defo in the 4th..... got that info from Forces War Records.... I mailed them today to ask for their source to see how concrete it was.

Any help you can give on maybe verifying that independently would be great, and also particularly interested in interpreting the other info I put in the original post about Casualty Lists to see what they might tell us?

Thanks again,

Paul
wibs12
Private
Private
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:58 pm

Re: Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby plbramham » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:22 pm

Obviously, Its the middle of the night, thus brief reply! I certainly think the fact he was in Stalag V111b indicates he was a 4th Bn PoW. I do have a few documents, though not exactly pertinent to your ancestor from PoWs there which I will scan and post for your interest,
Best Wishes, Paul
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Re: Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby plbramham » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:05 am

RE: Gill 3601124.

Here is a booklet cover regarding James Bryan Stilling 3599696, just slightly earlier in numbers! He WAS 4th Border and was in Stalag V111b captured at Incheville or the retirement from there. It was a very limited booklet produced by his widow. It WAS available from the Carlisle military museum, but I don’t know if any copies are left, and tells , briefly of his diary experiences in France, but mainly as a PoW. (He later became a K Shoes manager.)

The second image is a PoW letter from a “Pipe Major John Mc Fadd?” - hard to read, from the same Stalag. I will not post the reverse as I guess it is personal to some relative in Newcastle.

Thirdly, a tatty “Five Funfmark “ (PoW camp currency?) note he had in the letter.

I do have more info about “Stilling” , but naturally I am always sensitive about releasing information without any family consent, see if you can get a copy of the booklet from the museum: http://www.cumbriasmuseumofmilitarylife.org/

Hope this info helps,

Regards Paul.
Attachments
V111b 4th  border001.jpg
4th Border 1940 onwards Pow diary booklet
V111b 4th  border002.jpg
4th Border PoW letter
V111b 4th  border003.jpg
4th Border PoW money
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Re: Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby wibs12 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:10 am

Thanks for this Paul.

From everything you've said and from what I've now read on other topics in the forum I'm definitely leaning towards him being in the 4th Bn. Additionally, I'm, waiting for confirmation from Forces War Records of their source re him being in the 4th........ they've initially suggested it came from the Casualty Lists (they're coming back to confirm) but if that is the case then that will be the final nail in the coffin.

Many thanks for posting the images, it's great to help bring the thing alive for my friend and her family. Am now going to start learning more about Incheville so i can help tell that story for her.

As an aside, don't know if you are aware but I've come across a fantastic website which is dedicated to Stalag VIIIb which you may be interested to have a look through. as there are a good number of mentions of men from the Border regiment. You may well already know of it but no harm in posting just in case.

http://www.lamsdorf.com

Regards,

Paul
wibs12
Private
Private
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:58 pm

Re: Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby plbramham » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:24 pm

Hi,
I've been to the military museum in Carlisle today, and they do have copies of the PoW booklet left - but only a few, so better move quickly if you want one!
Cheers Paul
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Re: Private James Gill, 3601124 (POW 17068)

Postby plbramham » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:48 pm

You are probably aware , but with reference to P.o.W camps - "Stalag" was for "other ranks", Oflag" was for officers ( extreme example - Colditz!)

Also " casualty lists" does not necessarily mean the man was killed or wounded. It means he was "off the strength - "not available for duty" i.e did not report for roll thus maybe missing or a prisoner. ( I suppose anyone sick would also be on the lists?)

Regards Paul

P.S As well as the "Stilling" service number being pretty close to the Gill number, also notice, on cover of the booklet, that his PoW number 16775 was also pretty close too (Gill PoW 17068 ). Surely cannot be a coincidence? !
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Next

Return to World War Two

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

About Us

The Border Regiment Forum is a small and friendly community for anyone with an interest in the British regiment throughout its long and colourful history. The forum was set up first and foremost to bring together those with an interest and passion in the Regiment; to ask questions, share stories, provide knowledge and post photos relating to the regiment during the various conflicts and peacetimes it bore witness to.

  -  Cumbria's Museum of Military Life
  -  5th Border Regiment War Grave Project and Roll of Honour
  -  7th Border Regiment War Grave Project and Roll of Honour
  -  8th Border Regiment War Grave Project and Roll of Honour
  -  11th Border Regiment (Lonsdale) War Grave Project