injured soldiers

injured soldiers

Postby garrytrown » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:10 pm

My grandfather Thomas William Jelly/Trown being a regular soldier brought back from India served with the 29th Division, 1st Battalion "b" company, Border Regiment and was injured at both Gallipolli and the Somme,both injuries listed in the London Times, rumour has it that he ended the great war training troops in Bridlington, East Yorks. Is there any way this could be proven.Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Garry.
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Re: injured soldiers

Postby spike » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:21 am

His service record from the National Archives should tell you , if it is one of the surviving ones.(WW2 Bombing of Kew). A lot are on Ancestry, and they are in the process of digitising the remainder.....
(in November these records were free- in honour of  the 90th anniversary of the war ending, but unfortunately now you have to pay for them).
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Re: injured soldiers

Postby garrytrown » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:59 am

Hi Spike,I paid for a search some years ago, sadly he's part of the burnt papers, thanks anyway.Garry
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Re: injured soldiers

Postby kerchi » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:39 pm

Garry,

I know how you feel regarding not having copies of his records; I don't know for sure if my great grandfather's records are part of the 'Burnt' series (someone checked for his records on my behalf whilst at the NA and did not find anything so the answer is still not definite); I guess I like to think they still survive, which is the optimistic side of me creeping through.

I left a reply to your other post a couple days back here; if you have already seen then disregard this.I am curious as to how he sustained his injuries. You mention they were listed in the London Times, what else does it say? Because I have done some writing on the 1st Battalion I am keen to know in what action he was injured on both occasions.

Chris
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Re: injured soldiers

Postby garrytrown » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:58 pm

Chris,My apologies for leaving a responce so long, I have a letter from the then curator of Carlisle Castle (enclosed), let me know if the letter has attached.I have seen the London Times entries and all they do is list his name along with alot of others, as for operational areas I now he landed at "X" beach 25/04/1915 and am trying to find out what areas he was active in, as for the Somme, I believe he was part of an attack on Beacourt Redoubt.
My uncle Tommy now in his 80's told me he was in Bridlington, E Yorks training troops and I'm trying to establish if the wound recieved at the Somme was such as he was taken out of front line duty and was used due to his experience as a regular in the said trainig sector, any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated.

Garry

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Re: injured soldiers

Postby kerchi » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:50 pm

Garry,

Going back to your original question about proving whether or not Thomas trained troops in Bridlington because he could no longer serve on the front due to his injuries, the letter you attached (yes it worked fine) mentions the Medal Index Card and the possibility of a transfer to the Labour Corps; what did your search reveal? I certainly believe he could have trained troops because he would have had a certain amount of experience having been in two different theatres of war and also injured in both. But there seems to be the problem of actually proving it and without the written documentation it is a case of having to go on supposition instead, which as you know, can be wrong!  :-\

Without his records, which aren't always helpful, finding out his injuries are slim at best and without this information it will be diffucult to determine your query. What does the MIC say? This looks like the best way of finding out if he stayed in the Border Regiment.

Regarding the action he saw at X Beach and Beacourt Redoubt - have you had chance to read through the history I posted a link to along with the index to war diaries in this post?

Your other request to find out the 1st Battalion's movements between March and August 1916 are notably covered in the war diary but it doesn't always give you the details you might be after.This is from the 1st July 1916 and the Battalion were in the front line, the time was 7.30am:

The Btn (less 10%) advanced just SOUTH of BEAUMONT HAMEL, their objective being BEAUCOURT REDOUBT.
The 2nd S.W.Bs, whose objective was the first two GERMAN LINES, were wiped out by MACHINE GUN fire in our own wire. The 1st Btn. The BORDER REGT., then went over the top from our support line, and over our first line, the bridges over our front trench having been ranged by the GERMAN MACHINE GUNNERS the day previously. We met with heavy losses, while crossing these bridges + passing through the lanes out in our wire. The men were absolutely magificent, and formed up as ordered outside our wire, made a right incline, and advanced into NO MANS LAND at a slow walk, also as ordered. The advance was continued until only little groups of half a dozen men were left here and there and these, finding that no reinforcements were in sight, took cover in shell holes or wherever they could.


Because it has no mention of which Companies were where and we don't know who was in the 10% that remained behind, we can't say for sure where Thomas was and so have to rely on gut feelings and supposition (which is what I had to do when researching my great grandfather's story). This gives a good idea of what to expect and if you haven't looked at the war diary betweens the dates of particular interest to you, then go through them and get your bearings as to what the 1st Battalions was doing.

The war diary is about as detailed as you are going to get so if the information you are looking isn't in there the chances are you won't find it, unless you have a really lucky streak and then I would say could I have a per centage as I am never that lucky!
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Re: injured soldiers

Postby garrytrown » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:07 pm

Hi Chris,I think I'm a bit of a novice here, When I look at Thomas William Trown's medal Index Card all I see is the medals awarded foer his service as a soldier ie, victory medal etc, is there somethingI'm missing. I ca'nt confirm if he was transfered to the Labour Corps, do you know of any path I might take, I 've asked a local historian in Bridlington but he is unableto supply any info, although we think that their is a local boys army branch off Quay Road that served as the recruting office, I've had odd looks at the local paper for that time and found nothing although I have to admit again being a novice does not help.The "training troops" bit comes from my now only living uncle on my grandads side and whilst his health has somewhat deteriorated over the years he did tell me this at least 10yrs ago when his health was better and one has to admit it does seem plausable if only it could be confirmed.Moving on to your comment regarding his movements I have read your content on 01/07/1916 and am happy to know his movements that day although I'm saddened to learn that like others he had to go over the top from a support trench (I have strong feelings about Haig and his planning of the offensive, I mean what sort of statement is "we cannot hope to win until we have defeated the german army) please accept my apologies for being opininated as I know its against web-site rules. I'd like to now be able to put Beacourt Redoubt onto a today's plan and be able to stand/walk that bit of sector he actually operated in (this is an ambition)as I'd also like to camp in the area and spend some time there.I will read the diaries as I'm sure they are facinating, thank you for your help and suggestions and please continue to offer anything you may feel could be useful, joining this website has certainly been fruitful but what really is inspiring is the amount of people out there with not only the same interest as me but the commitment they offer. Like you I will remain hopeful of any news that may ultimately fill in the blank spaces that was my grandad.Many thanks,Garry
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Re: injured soldiers

Postby kerchi » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:25 pm

Garry,It seems that you have tried to follow other avenues and have unfortunately turned up at dead ends, which I am sorry to hear. If the 'training troops' piece of the puzzle can't be confirmed then you might, for now anyway, have to go with your gut feeling about it; do you believe this is what he did? Don't be too doubtful as you will always feel unsure as to the validity of the claims. I would tend to believe your uncle and rely on his words as evidence.....but [size=14px]never give up just because you can't find what you're looking for[/size]; that little nugget of clairfying information might be hiding away somewhere just waiting to be discovered!The simple fact of the matter is that there could be too many variables as to what really happened.You are not missing anything on the MIC as you would have noticed anything that stands out. If the 'Corps' section at the top only mention the Border Regiment then that's the only regiment he was in. I don't know how true this but I was under the impression that other regiments/units were included in this section if a soldiers served in another regiment. For example, I have a set of MICs in the name of Bardgett (my great grandfather's name) and out of the six on the page one has a mention as being in the Border Regiment and then the Gordons. If you have doubts though as to whether he might have served in the Labour Corps, which is definitely a distinct possibility, then have a look at this website as the guy running it seems quite confident about finding further information. It's worth asking anyway. Did your grandfather's MIC list the Silver War Badge? A great many newspaper articles would have been published during the war years and so you will need to keep looking in the library and/or country archives. Where are you based?I am glad you found the war diaries and parts of the history of some interest. You can learn a great deal from the war diaries even if an ancestor is not mentioned directly. It's basically up to the user how he or she interprets it and finds any use. Your comment, however, is fine  :D; eveyone is allowed to have an opinion, as long as it is not too political or in anyway nasty to anyone else so I think you're off the hook there!  ::)

I think working with what you already know is an excellent idea, especially walking the route he would have taken around the Beaucourt Redoubt. This is a great focus and something I can totally associate with as for me the same would be to walk the route in and around Authuille and Authuille Woods. It is significant to me as is the Beaucourt Redoubt to you. I have tried to find useful 'then and now' images of the area but have not turned up anything really useful. Have you bought the book BEAUCOURT, by Micahel Renshaw? It is part of the Battleground Europe series produced by Pen and Sword, ISBN: 0850528534. It will be well worth the £9-10 it'll cost and will have plenty of images and useful information there including present day walks, which is what you are after.

I will keep an eye open for anything and please keep us posted with anything else you might find relating to your research (or anything Border Regiment in general).I know I wasn't much use again :-\ but maybe you might find something in the book.Chris

One other thing, the Battleground series also did a Gallipoli one, which I have and is also worth getting; you might want to consider getting that one as well as Thomas spent time there.
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Re: injured soldiers

Postby garrytrown » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:59 pm

Hi,Many thanks for your detailed reply, I'm going to take your advise and take the view he did serve in some capacity during the war as someone who could aid the war effort in some other field. I'm going home to Bridlington back end of February and intend to do some more digging, hopefully something will turn up, there are local historians who may be able to help, I certainly do not intend to give up just yet. :)The problem I have with newspaper articles and news is grandad Jelly/Trown was born in Workington and I've no idea if he ever went back after joining up in 1912, its clear that having married my grandmother in April 1919 he made his home in Bridlington where he died December 1970.

Regarding "Beacourt Redoubt" as I mentioned before I'm busy planning at the moment and do'nt know if I want to campor take the wife and have a B&B instead anyway a couple of people have sent maps and photo's of the area and I'm still trying to get my head around the locations.Once again many thanks.RegardsGarry.

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