South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

Postby plbramham » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:47 am

Group photos of 4th Border (territorials) from various South Lakeland towns and villages pictured at Maymyo, Burma, which appeared in The Westmorland Mercury & Times in several editions during 1915
(Sorry for the poor image quality but it is copied directly from a microfilm reader screen which has uneven illumination and the reproduction on microfilm is not great at recording images – very contrasty. The alternative is to have a printout but those results in a photocopy type give an even higher contrast result. Of course the original image in the paper would not have been great to begin with due to the massive dots on the printing screen used to make the blocks in those days.)
Click on image of newspaper to enlarge it for reading.
Paul.
Attachments
mercury may 21 1915 kendal maymyo_edited-1.jpg
Kendal men
mercury may 14 windermere maymyo_edited-1.jpg
Windermere men
mercury k lonsdale maymyo April 2nd 1915.jpg
Kirkby Lonsdale men
mercury staveley burma old photo_edited-1.jpg
Staveley men
mercury burneside burmah1915_edited-1.jpg
Burneside men
mercury may 7 Milnorpe & Heversham Maymyo_edited-1.jpg
Milnthorpe & Heversham men
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Re: South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

Postby plbramham » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:22 am

Here's another one - this one just listed as being men from F Company 4th Border at Maymyo, rather than by their home town.
Attachments
mercury 4th border  Maymyo 30 june 1915_edited-1.jpg
F company 4th Border Maymyo 1915
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Re: South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

Postby hussar1000 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:58 am

A most informative post! I really enjoy seeing the old newspaper cuttings. Thank you, for taking the time in research and posting on the forum.
User avatar
hussar1000
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:27 pm

Staveley 4th Border territorials original photo 1915

Postby plbramham » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:30 pm

Here's a scan from the original photo of the Staveley men in Maymyo, Burma 1915. The photographer is S.M. Samuel (signature bottom right), and the detail is so good it must have been taken on a plate camera - you can even see the brass "Border" shoulder titles and the bullion crown above the Sergenats stripes in the centre. (Click on the image to enlarge it and you'll see what I mean!)
Paul
Attachments
2nd4th Border 1915 Maymyo Burma 1915.jpg
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Re: South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

Postby kerchi » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:29 pm

Excellent images and superb photo at the end. I love to see and read about the territorials.

Looks like the sergeant (H. Ivinson from the newspaper print of the same photo) in the middle was caught off guard when it was taken.
In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.), 11th Border Regiment who died 1st July 1916.

Any problems, comments or questions about the forum? Contact me at: admin@border-regiment-forum.com
User avatar
kerchi
Field-Marshal
Field-Marshal
 
Posts: 2160
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:36 pm
Location: Padfield, Derbyshire

Re: South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

Postby kerchi » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:05 pm

Just a thought, the above photo is of 2/4th Border men right? But didn't the 2/4th actually go to India not Burma? On the war diary page for 1915 on the wiki it mentions "The Battalion was asked to volunteer for service in Burma. Practically every man volunteered, but owing to a considerable number being too young for Foreign Service, only 767 N.C.O.'s and men were available."

Then later for 2 March it says "Two officers and 329 other ranks were transferred to the Depot. In order to partially equip the men proceeding to Burma it was necessary to take practically every serviceable article of clothing from the men transferred to Kendal."

And on 3 march it says "The Battalion, consisting of 28 officers and 767 other ranks, left Blackpool in two parties for Avonmouth. The final destination of the Battalion was changed from Burma to Poona, Bombay Presidency, India."

And the battalion eventually arrives in Bombay on 31 March 1915, not Burma. So, are these men 1/4th Battalion as they did go to Burma? Or am I getting my wires crossed somewhere?
In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.), 11th Border Regiment who died 1st July 1916.

Any problems, comments or questions about the forum? Contact me at: admin@border-regiment-forum.com
User avatar
kerchi
Field-Marshal
Field-Marshal
 
Posts: 2160
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:36 pm
Location: Padfield, Derbyshire

Re: South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

Postby plbramham » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:38 pm

Hi Chris,
Basically before the outbreak of war there a was only a 4th battalion.
The first batch went, as you rightly said, to Burma. Thus they of course became designated the 1/4th Bn.
The second batch naturally were the 2/4th who went to India. ( i.e. guess you could say the pre-war 4th Bn was split into two, although that is an over simplification) Note the photo only says 4th battalion, and does actually specify 1/4th or 2/4th.
The 2/4th did go to Bombay ( via Blackpool) but their original destination was Burma but it was changed

Does that make sense ? i.e the photo is 1/4th as the men of 2/4th originally intended to go to Burma went in India instead.
(I won't complicate matters by going into depth about the 3/4th as they were a training unit who remained in the UK)

Cheers Paul

P.S Incidentally don't forget the 4th Bn territorials were also in Mesopotamia
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Re: South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

Postby kerchi » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:30 pm

There does seem to be a discrepancy of dates somewhere along the lines. I generally understand the 4th Battalion prior to, during and after the creation of its sister battalions but the newspaper clippings state '4th Battalion' up to 30 July 1915, but by then the 1/4th, 2/4th and 3/4th Battalions were in use. I have seen different dates from different sources as to when the 2/4th and 3/4th battalions were formed, and in the case of the 4th, renamed/converted to the 1/4th.

This site is useful: Orders of Battle - Border Regiment but they have the 4th Bn being converted to the 1/4th in March 1915, yet the 2/4th created/formed in October 1914 (and the Long Long Trail in September 1914) several months before. Something isn't quite right here. I would like some sort of clarification for the below just for the sake of accuracy on the wiki and cohesion in my mind :-\

4th Bn - Aug 1914 (staffed and equipped, in other words, mobilised)
1/4th - renamed/converted from 4th Bn in March 1915 - this can't be correct!
2/4th - Created/formed in Sept/Oct 1914 (depending on sources)
3/4th - Created/formed in March 1915

The image title of the photo I mentioned (the scan in sepia directly above) of Staveley men is named '2nd4th Border Maymyo Burma 1915.jpg'. This is what has confused me as this is the same image as the newspaper clipping 4th from the top that doesn't have a date or battalion number anywhere in the image. I think the image title of the sepia scan is wrong; shouldn't that be 1/4th?

When the newspapers say '4th Battalion' in Maymyo or '4th Border, Burma' they actually mean 1/4th, yes?
In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.), 11th Border Regiment who died 1st July 1916.

Any problems, comments or questions about the forum? Contact me at: admin@border-regiment-forum.com
User avatar
kerchi
Field-Marshal
Field-Marshal
 
Posts: 2160
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:36 pm
Location: Padfield, Derbyshire

Re: South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

Postby plbramham » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:02 pm

Hi Chris,
Yes you are right - the 4th mobilised in August 1914 and the 2/4th was created September/October 1914 after the fornation of 1/4th so the date from your source of March 1915 for the 1/4th cannot be right.

Regarding the newspaper cuttings - I reckon they just used the generic term "4th battalion" without getting involved in the "subsections" as their readers would probably have thought of their lads as having joined the "4th Border" as territorials. They probably considered that the location they were serving in and their hometown more important in the title than specifying 1/4 or 2/4th. Actually I'm surprised they didn't shorten it even more to say "Staveley Border men in Burma"

I can clear up the sepia photo file name mystery easily - my fault with the file name !- I should just have filed it as something like "4th Border Staveley Burma" I was scanning it with load of other stuff as I've accidently put 2/4th instead of 1/4th or even just 4th.
I hadn't spotted it until you mentioned it was on the filename because of course it's not mentioned in my text or in the newspaper cutting as 2/4th, you only see it on my original filename

Sorry about that. Regards Paul.

P.S. To answer your last point -If newspapers etc talk about 4th Border Burma, yes it's 1/4th
User avatar
plbramham
General
General
 
Posts: 1369
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 pm
Location: kendal

Re: South Lakeland 4th Border men in Maymyo 1915

Postby kerchi » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:22 pm

That clears the image title irregularity up for me. The only reason why I picked it up was because, after getting the ok from yourself, I am going to use it on the wiki and saved the image with the confusing 2/4th image title. The little mouse and wheel inside my head was working overtime on figuring out how they could be 2/4th and not 1/4th :-\

Anyway, thanks for letting me know :-)

Regarding newspaper titles, I agree the significance is that the men were from a certain hometown, filling the reader with a sense of local pride so to speak; knowing they were from 'your' hometown was important, especially at a time of war.
In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.), 11th Border Regiment who died 1st July 1916.

Any problems, comments or questions about the forum? Contact me at: admin@border-regiment-forum.com
User avatar
kerchi
Field-Marshal
Field-Marshal
 
Posts: 2160
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:36 pm
Location: Padfield, Derbyshire

Next

Return to 4th Battalion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

About Us

The Border Regiment Forum is a small and friendly community for anyone with an interest in the British regiment throughout its long and colourful history. The forum was set up first and foremost to bring together those with an interest and passion in the Regiment; to ask questions, share stories, provide knowledge and post photos relating to the regiment during the various conflicts and peacetimes it bore witness to.

  -  Cumbria's Museum of Military Life
  -  5th Border Regiment War Grave Project and Roll of Honour
  -  7th Border Regiment War Grave Project and Roll of Honour
  -  8th Border Regiment War Grave Project and Roll of Honour
  -  11th Border Regiment (Lonsdale) War Grave Project