Xmas Card , 8th Border Regiment

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Re: Xmas Card , 8th Border Regiment

Postby kerchi » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:08 pm

Just an aside regarding the spelling of Sergeant:

spike wrote:The card has the more traditional spelling of an abbreviation for Sergeant. In the Great War it appears the
older spelling Serjeant, was more popular, abbreviated Sjt. or Serjt.
I know this because I have a bit of a thing for bad spelling and I have not yet been able to spell it on my
sites as anything other than Sergeant, something I will have to correct for accuracy's sake, I now realise.


I totally agree here. I have seen the usage 'Sjt.' or 'Serjeant' many many times whilst looking through the supplements to the Gazette and this version, as opposed to the modern day spelling, was indeed widely used (if not mostly used) this way. But it gets complicated because I have seen it spelt 'Serjeant' and 'Sergeant' in newspaper articles before during and after the war, however, according to the CWGC, the term 'Serjeant' was used until 1953 by the British and NZ forces; I have also seen 'Serjeant' used in present day news reports and articles, in this case the The Rifles Regiment. See this article:

The Final Word - Sky News

plbramham wrote:I have noticed examples of both Sergeant and Serjeant being used by the same regiment in the same period - see CWGC WW1 entries.

So have I when adding details to my Casualties of the Border Regiment project using the CWGC, and I have seen the abbreviation Sgt. in Soldiers Died in the Great War

Generally speaking, the term 'Serjeant' does appear to be the correct spelling for period in time, however, who can say what is correct when many sources show both spellings and their abbreviations being used, whether military or civilian. So, apologies for my digression, it doesn't really matter which war the card was sent in because according to sources (and remember we still don't really know how accurate these are because they are filtered through websites and forums - yes inc. this one) 'Serjeant' was in use at the time. Are we any closer to solving this? :-\

On the card though, to me anyway, I still see C Sergt- and I'd like to think it is WWI. Who's with me or are we divided? ;-)
In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.), 11th Border Regiment who died 1st July 1916.

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Re: Xmas Card , 8th Border Regiment

Postby plbramham » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:16 am

Chris, I would agree with you for WW1, particularly because of the crest style and font type.
Yorkie - can you tell us where you got the "(Kendal)" from on your original caption? If it was actually on the card or somehow directly attributable to the item, I would say definitely WW1, wheras if the dealer just told you it was from Kendal, it could be that he saw 8th Btn and thought of the Kendal pals. Then of course, using Spike's information it could be a detachment of the WW2 Home Service 8th Btn based in the town.
Just to really put the cat among the pigeons, the card could have been printed in WW1 , but "used up" at a later date by a soldier finding a batch say in a cupboard at the TA centre in Queen Katherine St. This could explain the informal, unofficial type signature.
If I had to make a call I would say First World War, but perhaps we will only know for certain if the museum or a collector has another example the same, Paul.
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Re: Xmas Card , 8th Border Regiment

Postby spike » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:05 pm

Looking through the casualties of the 8th Border in WW1, it could be one of the following
(or he could have survived the war..)

RIDING
George
16484 Sergeant
k.i.a.
10 April 1918
PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL
PANEL 6.
Age 24. Son of Mrs. Mary Ann Riding, of 20, Kemp St.,
Crimshaw Park, Blackburn

BROWN
George
21327 Sergeant
k.i.a.
07 July 1916
BOUZINCOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
I.D.9.

DAWSON
George
32267 Sergeant
d.
05 June 1917
NIEUWKERKE CHURCHYARD
H.2.

Also if the "C" was an "L",perhaps this man
STRAUGHAN
George
13394 Lance Sergeant
k.i.a.
21 March 1918
ARRAS MEMORIAL
Bay 6.
Age 23. Son of Peter and Jane Straughan, of South Crossing,
Wooler, Northumberland
SPIKE

LINK - Border Regiment in the Great War Websites
(right click and open in new tab)

In memory of -19455 Private John Farrer,
A Company 11th Border Regiment k.i.a. 1st July 1916
.
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Re: Xmas Card , 8th Border Regiment

Postby plbramham » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:37 am

Spike, I reckon "L Sgt" is a good idea - I hadn't thought of " Lance Sergeant" . Was that rank the equivalent of temporary Sgt or perhaps another term for a senior Corporal? I'm thinking that because my father was a Bombardier in the RA, and I know the artillery use the term Lance Bombardier, Paul.
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Re: Xmas Card , 8th Border Regiment

Postby spike » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:52 am

Lance sergeant
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A colour sergeant of the Coldstream Guards (right) speaking to a lance sergeant (left).

A lance sergeant (LSgt or L/Sgt) in the armies of the Commonwealth was a corporal acting in the rank of sergeant. The appointment is retained now only in the Foot Guards and Honourable Artillery Company. In these regiments, all corporals are automatically appointed lance sergeant on their promotion, so lance sergeants perform the same duties as corporals in other regiments and are not acting sergeants in anything but name.

The appointment originated in the British Army and Royal Marines, in which it could be removed by the soldier's commanding officer, unlike a full sergeant, who could only be demoted by court martial. Lance sergeants first appeared in the 19th century.[1] The appointment was abolished in 1946, except in the guards' regiments mentioned above. Some cadet units also retained the rank in addition to corporal into at least the 1980s.[citation needed] The Household Cavalry equivalent is lance-corporal of horse.

Lance sergeants wear three rank chevrons. In full dress, Foot Guards lance sergeants are distinguished from full sergeants by their white chevrons (full sergeants wearing gold).

Some sources claim that the use of the appointment of lance sergeant was introduced by Queen Victoria, who stated that her guards would not wear only one chevron when mounting guard outside the royal palaces. Guards lance-corporals therefore wore two chevrons. That left the problem of what the full corporal would wear, so the appointment of lance sergeant was introduced.[2] However, the Guards regiments still had corporals until after the First World War and the appointment of lance sergeant was used throughout the army (not just by the Guards) until 1946,[citation needed] so the veracity of the story is questionable.


Whether or not you take WikiPedia with a pinch of salt, I leave to the reader...

From the Irish Guards website
The Irish Guards (along with the rest of the Household Division) have a unique rank structure. Where the rest of the Army have Lance-Corporals who wear one chevron and Corporals who wear two chevrons, the Guards have Lance-Corporals who wear two chevrons and the rank of Lance-Sergeant who is a full Corporal but who wears three chevrons and is senior by appointment to a normal Corporal. The rank structure was appointed by Queen Victoria who stated that her Guards would not wear only one chevron when mounting guard outside the Royal Palaces so she stated that the Lance-Corporal would wear two chevrons. That left the problem of what the full Corporal would wear to show that he was a full Corporal so the rank of Lance-Sergeant was appointed. Even though the Lance-Sergeant is only a full Corporal to the eyes of outside Regiments and Corps, he still has full Sergeants' Mess privileges.
SPIKE

LINK - Border Regiment in the Great War Websites
(right click and open in new tab)

In memory of -19455 Private John Farrer,
A Company 11th Border Regiment k.i.a. 1st July 1916
.
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Re: Xmas Card , 8th Border Regiment

Postby yorkie » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:02 am

Hello Gents,
Sorry about the length of time it took to find the information you had asked for. As you can see it came to me via Ebay,I did however enter into a
dialogue with the seller who assured me the item is genuinely a ww1 postcard. He told me he had bought a collection of border regiment Items
including badges,medals,some uniforms,postcards and other Ephemera,All of it he assured me was WW1. He said he went to Lancaster to buy the
Collection From a chap who was selling all his militaria which the chap had collected over I think he said 50 years. I hope this helps.Regards Andy.---------The attachment says it is not yet downloaded, Just left click on it and the box at the bottom of the page asks whether you wish to open or save the file. Just click on open and the file should appear on screen.--------------------
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